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Post by Casting Stones on Nov 22, 2010 15:23:01 GMT -5
How interesting that nobody takes any issue with any of the points offered by ComeOn, any one of which is fatal to the claim that whoever takes this job is a hypocrite. If you take a job with a specialty in social justice and inequality and claim not to have seen this pattern a hundred times, you are a hypocrite. You may have very good reasons for being a hypocrite. But you are still a hypocrite. We will know who took this job. It will be one of your friends. You can decide whether or not s/he is a hypocrite. You can also decide whether or not s/he is one of the posters in this debate. If somebody who specialiizes in social justice and inequality takes this job, they are a hypocrite. If they also posted on this board attacking the hypocrisy, they are disgusting and should be shunned by whatever colleagues they have. I think most people have made it clear that they will or have applied for this position not because they aren't hypocrites, but because hypocrisy should not be a reason for not applying.
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Post by Bricks in the Wall on Nov 22, 2010 16:06:40 GMT -5
I agree with Casting Stones. We've all studied how hypocrisy works in systems of inequality. Obviously, the reason we study that is not to change it, but so that we will have so many examples of hypocrisy to choose from when we want to rationalize our own behavior.
Hypocrisy is the wave of the future. Let's get ahead of the curve. And if women and minorities and different sexualities are hurt, well we didn't really hurt them. We just closed our eyes to their pain.
When I find out who gets this job, I'm going to walk right up to them at ASA and congratulate them on being in front on the issue of hypocrisy.
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Sarcasmisthenewpink
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Post by Sarcasmisthenewpink on Nov 22, 2010 16:27:46 GMT -5
Agreed. It's clear the best way to combat the injustices suffered by the former faculty member at Ithaca is to not apply. Similarly, we can combat racism by opting out of White privilege, refer to ourselves as 'ze' instead of 'he' or 'she' in order to fight the gender binary, and refuse to buy and/or use any product derived from the devaluing of someone else's labor.
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Post by All together on Nov 22, 2010 18:25:31 GMT -5
We're agreed then. When we see whoever gets the Ithaca job at the ASA, we will walk up to him or her and congratulate them for avoiding all of the overly direct ways of fighting injustice and for being ahead of the curve on hypocrisy.
Doesn't it make you proud to be a sociologist?
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ShamefulSociologist
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Post by ShamefulSociologist on Nov 22, 2010 19:17:45 GMT -5
We're agreed then. When we see whoever gets the Ithaca job at the ASA, we will walk up to him or her and congratulate them for avoiding all of the overly direct ways of fighting injustice and for being ahead of the curve on hypocrisy. Doesn't it make you proud to be a sociologist? Taking a job at an institution with an explicit and documented injustice cannot possibly be a potentially overt form of fighting injustice. You're right!
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Post by Reality on Nov 22, 2010 20:01:56 GMT -5
Good luck finding a school that hasn't had a similar controversy about someone not getting tenure (whether in sociology or some other department).
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Post by Hopeful on Nov 22, 2010 20:23:59 GMT -5
We can only hope that whoever gets the job is as adept at rationalization as Casting/Sarcasm/Shameful. You are going to need it in that department.
If you don't get the job, please consider whether the study of social injustice is really your forte. An accomplished hypocrite can find more lucrative ways to make money.
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Post by El Guesto on Nov 22, 2010 21:26:47 GMT -5
Good luck finding a school that hasn't had a similar controversy about someone not getting tenure (whether in sociology or some other department). Every tenure candidate who is turned down claims there was bias. That's the only grounds on which one can appeal.
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Post by Disenchanted on Nov 23, 2010 11:28:28 GMT -5
We can only hope that whoever gets the job is as adept at rationalization as Casting/Sarcasm/Shameful. You are going to need it in that department. If you don't get the job, please consider whether the study of social injustice is really your forte. An accomplished hypocrite can find more lucrative ways to make money. An accomplished hypocrite would probably not apply for this position. I mean, with the potential to confront injustice directly rather than just in the abstract, I would imagine quite a few hypocrites masquerading as 'extra special concerned' with what happened there would just as soon stay as far away as possible. It's the sociological thing to do.
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Post by JustCurious on Nov 23, 2010 11:38:43 GMT -5
So since some have obviously rationalized why they won't apply to Ithaca, what was this rationalization process like for jobs at Marquette, Harvard, and other institutions which have had open problems with discrimination, harassment, and tenure problems in the recent past?
Or is Ithaca extra special?
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Post by We are Waiting on Nov 23, 2010 12:07:49 GMT -5
Rather than listen to more from "Thoroughly/Reality/Casting Stones/Sarcasmisthenewpink/ShamefulSociologist/El Guesto/Disinchanted/Just Curious," let us wait and see.
We will know who takes the job and we will see whether he or she would otherwise be starving, or if they are using the position in the department to directly confront the obvious injustice in the department. If that turns out to be true I will apologize face-to-face.
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Post by SaveYourApology on Nov 23, 2010 12:11:54 GMT -5
We will know who takes the job and we will see whether he or she would otherwise be starving, or if they are using the position in the department to directly confront the obvious injustice in the department. If that turns out to be true I will apologize face-to-face. Don't apologize. You too will take a job at an institution with an equally problematic record, just like everyone else. And you, just like everyone else, will rationalize it in some form or another.
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Post by Perfect on Nov 23, 2010 13:32:35 GMT -5
You're perfect for that position. I hope you get hired! Best of luck! For the rest of us, I'd prefer not to work in a snake-pit. No matter what they say, I'd get bit by one of them sooner or later.
But, I'm sure you'll have the last word!
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Post by publicsoc on Nov 23, 2010 21:07:24 GMT -5
Lots of vitriol here. Or, maybe I'm just really confused... Not to be offensive, but I can't understand what half the previous posters are arguing or arguing about--almost sounds like they are written by the same person with a bone-to-pick. A few thoughts/reactions (apologies to the nice people who I'm misreading):
1) Hypocrites are those who hold others to standards that they themselves would not submit to. I'm a hypocrite everyday since I use coal-created electricity to power this computer I'm typing on, but I think coal companies should stop mountain-top removal. Since I--and presumably most everyone else reading this--has not decided to abstain from coal, we ought to instead protest coal companies, blockade mining roads, or engage in other forms of solidarity with residents of WV, KY, etc. who are getting their lives/health ruined (at least if we care about the injustice of the issue). Unless there is an official boycott of Ithaca College that I can sign-on to, especially supported by students and employees of Ithaca, I don't understand this argument. (... and support Appalachia Rising!)
2) How can taking a job make someone a scumbag (I'm interpolating people's intended labels, here), just because someone who previously worked as the same place was fired/not-tenured/harassed/etc? By this logic, everyone concerned with justice should immediately abandon whatever institution is claimed to have wronged someone. I doubt many students or employees who sympathize with the non-tenured ex-prof have left Ithaca--for selfish and principled reasons. The selfish reasons are their own, but I assume some stay in order to press for changes to problematic-individuals and the institution at-large. Why couldn't a new hire work to change the institution/department? I'm skeptical of the prospects for this, but isn't it theoretical possible? Should we abandon Ithaca's Soc Dept until everyone there is dead, retired, or relocated? How would that benefit anyone? If you can't change things outside the institution, try inside. That doesn't make you a scab (unless there's an official boycott).
3) How nice is it to harass people for their private decisions? If I took the opportunity to harass every person with a PhD at an ASA meeting who came from a Top 20 PhD program (all of which have their own major or mini scandals), I wouldn't make it through the hotel lobby. Should I be bitter that folks with nice, privileging degrees can afford to make these decisions? (Such as get jobs at Ithaca College?) The problem is--as people have noted on the Rumor Mill for the last 4 years I've been reading it--is the job market itself. Too many potential candidates, too few positions, and many of us (myself included) who are well-enough accomplished and decently smart/competent, but do not have a Sociological Superstar writing reference letters for us (nor who put us on their ASR piece). Don't begrudge people for their private decisions--again, unless there's an active boycott. (I know of at least two positions I interviewed for in recent years that were won by folks who come from some mean-ass departments. I'm assuming the people receiving the offers were nice people, though, and I don't take it personally, nor trash them publicly).
Still not satisfied? Engage in public agitation to change institutions. Stop the f*ck'n self-righteousness, get a job (ha-ha-ha), and start challenging the mighty Ivory Tower from whatever vantage point you can. Solidarity is a lot more fulfilling their backstabbing behind an alienating computer screen.
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Post by Observer on Nov 23, 2010 23:36:03 GMT -5
I'm not a job applicant but rather a tenured professor who finds this thread engaging. Any applicant who holds high academic ideals would find it difficult to locate a department or university where none of your ideals will be violated. After all, the junior position you're getting probably belonged to someone who didn't get tenure and who now feels aggrieved. In a sense, aren't you taking his or her job? Will you investigate that situation before accepting an offer? Would you be a hypocrite for taking that job?
My other point is that while some of you are condemning Ithaca's department faculty and administration, how much do you really know about this case, beyond the public complaints by the faculty member? Understand that the college and faculty are constrained from speaking out to present their reasons, especially if there will be litigation. I've seen statements above about "everybody knows" and "obvious injustice," but, really, you don't know unless you have evidence both pro and con on the episode. I hope you will be careful and empirical in your judgments, so that your political idealism will mean more.
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